Jump to content


New Ural Lubrication


  • Please log in to reply
29 replies to this topic

#1 saltydog

saltydog

    Active Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 44 posts
  • Joined:20-November 06
  • Interests:Motorcycle Touring, Sailing, Hotair Balloons, Banjo

Posted 30 November 2006 - 06:08 PM

Just bought a Ural and was wondering about the deep sump and if it is necessary to have the oil pump extension to make it worthwhile.  What about the transmisson oil...the recommended type is the same as the engine.  Does anyone use heavier gear oil?  I have used 80 weight in the transmission and final drive of my BMW and it has worked fine for years.

#2 wyowillys46

wyowillys46

    Russian Bike Nut

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 375 posts
  • Joined:19-July 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Classic vehicles & Firearms collecting. The two best ways to drain your wallet.

Posted 30 November 2006 - 06:41 PM

Ah oh. Can of worms.
Morgan

2006 Gear-Up

#3 kugelbake

kugelbake

    Russian Bike Nut

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 643 posts
  • Joined:28-November 04
  • Location:Port St Joe, FL
  • Interests:American history, English literature, German women, Italian food, Russian bikes, guns, and kids.

Posted 30 November 2006 - 07:21 PM

The older Urals used a nearly flat stamped steel oil pan.  The finned aluminum one on your new Ural is a "deep" pan by Russian standards.  Yes, you can buy a deeper, bigger pan, but I think they're only needed for extreme uses like desert racing & etc.

As to gear oil vs motor oil:  First, understand that the viscosity rating chart for gear oil and motor oil are different.  For instance, Mobil's 75w-90 synthetic gear lube has nearly identical viscosity to Mobil's 15w-50 motor oil.  In fact, a petroleum engineer whom I shared many a pint of moonshine with in the Saudi desert, strongly believed the two products differed only in their packaging!

So go ahead and use your SAE 80 gear lube if you prefer, but realize it is far inferior to multi-vicosity oils as far as protecting your transmission and final drive during cold start-up and in hot weather.

I'll let someone else address the whole phosporus issue.
Maughanster

2008 Buell XB12
1964ish Ural 650cc Hardtail

Nolo Me Damnare

#4 Peter

Peter

    Russian Bike Nut

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 334 posts
  • Joined:26-September 06

Posted 30 November 2006 - 07:43 PM

 kugelbake, on Nov 30 2006, 07:21 PM, said:

I'll let someone else address the whole phosporus issue.

Phosphorus? Gee, phosphorus! I totally forgot about the phosphorus!
I suspect I should know about the phosphorus.
Could somebody please be so kind and address the phosphorus issue.

I have some strong opinions about lubrication:

Engine: Mobil1 15/50 full synthetic after break-in with mineral oil (only because it gets hot!)(change often)
Transmission: Same, to keep it simple. Doesn't need synthetic though.
Final drive: Still investigating...
Nope, no deep sump for me, don't want to hit anything, needs longer to warm up

All this may change pending the phosphorus issue.

All fired up Peter

(Oh, I forgot the cables: Never, ever let get any oil near them, parrafin wax or molybdenum sulfite)

#5 Driveshaft

Driveshaft

    Active Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 86 posts
  • Joined:12-November 05
  • Location:Concord, NC

Posted 30 November 2006 - 07:51 PM

Yep, big can of worms, and just like arse's, everyone has their own opinion...here is mine.

More oil is always better than less oil.  Especially when you are dealing with such a small quantity overall.

A good synthetic gear oil (I am using Red Line's Heavy ShockProof gear oil) offers far better lubrication and cushioning properties than a 20w50 motor oil.  I noticed an immediate improvement in shifting smoothness and the gearbox is much quieter now than before.  My bike only has 350K on it at this point, and I am using the tank shifter.  I don't know how much difference you will be able to feel using your foot.
Jim McKenzie
2006 Patrol (Fug)
1995 RS-125 Honda GP Roadracer
1977 XS-650 Yamaha
1974 R-90S BMW
1978 Moto Guzzi 850T3
2008 Beta 250 Rev3 Trials Bike
Sherco, Beta, and GasGas dealer

#6 JohnBG

JohnBG

    Russian Bike Nut

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 8,017 posts
  • Joined:24-November 04
  • Location:Deltona, Florida, USA
  • Interests:Jesus, my family, Urals & AK-47s...

Posted 30 November 2006 - 07:52 PM

Without the longer pickup, the deep sump is useless.  Contact Ken Ulrich here on this board, he makes a deep sump kit with the longer pickup.

I use 20W50 in the engine (mixed with some HyperLube or Lucas Oil Treatment in the 650) and transmission.  90W gear oil in the final drive works for me.
John Grocke (a.k.a. JohnBG)
1998.5 Ural Tourist 650 - "Valentina" - The Blonde
2006 Ural Raven 750 - "Vorona" - The Brunette

Site Admin for Soviet Steeds Motorcycle Forums - http://www.sovietsteeds.com/forums - An independent "collective" for Soviet, Russian, and Ukrainian motorcycle enthusiasts
Now visit the Soviet Steeds Photo Galleries - http://www.sovietsteeds.com/galleries - Add your own pics.

#7 Peter

Peter

    Russian Bike Nut

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 334 posts
  • Joined:26-September 06

Posted 30 November 2006 - 08:02 PM

 Driveshaft, on Nov 30 2006, 07:51 PM, said:

A good synthetic gear oil (I am using Red Line's Heavy ShockProof gear oil) offers far better lubrication and cushioning properties than a 20w50 motor oil.  I noticed an immediate improvement in shifting smoothness and the gearbox is much quieter now than before.  My bike only has 350K on it at this point, and I am using the tank shifter.  I don't know how much difference you will be able to feel using your foot.

I am due for a transmission oil change and the last time the magnetic plug still had a nasty hairdo. Until that's getting better I don't think anything will make much of a difference. I am going to try this Red Line stuff or something similar.

Working my way to the rear

Peter

No word on the phosphorus yet?

#8 IMZman

IMZman

    Russian Bike Nut

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2,015 posts
  • Joined:22-December 03

Posted 30 November 2006 - 09:15 PM

Phos. will eat the bronze bushings (if any) in engine/gearbox. Just use what is recommended.

Too much oil can be a bad thing. For the oil to dissipate heat it must move across the cooler surface. If you over fill the standard sump or use a deep sump which has not been properly thought out...you can actually end up running hotter. Thermodynamics. TTT...Time, Temperature and Turbulence.

I wouldn't use synthetic until you've put  several thousand km's on the drive components. These engines need to be run-in for final fit to tolerance and it is not finished in 2,500 km's. If it were a CNC machined engine, it would be different.
Bill Glaser
2002 Patrol "CYKA"
200,000+ km's since May 2002
Click here to go to: "The Unofficial URAL 750cc Service Manual"

#9 Driveshaft

Driveshaft

    Active Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 86 posts
  • Joined:12-November 05
  • Location:Concord, NC

Posted 30 November 2006 - 09:32 PM

I am not sure about the phosphorus content of lubricants other than Mobil 1 and Red Line, but I do know that is not an issue with either of those two.

I have used Red Line lubricants in my air cooled BMWs for over 400,000 miles with zero problems.

I still hold that a deep sump pan (with or without the longer pickup) is a good addition to the Ural.  Where I live in North Carolina it gets hot in the summer, and I will end up idling around in traffic at some point every day on my way to work and back.  The extra quart of oil that I will get from the deep sump will help the oil do what it is supposed to do.

Red Line recommends using a mineral based oil in the engine until you get at least 2800 miles on it, then switch to a synthetic.  Transmissions seldom need more than a couple hundred miles before you can switch to a synthetic if you choose to.
Jim McKenzie
2006 Patrol (Fug)
1995 RS-125 Honda GP Roadracer
1977 XS-650 Yamaha
1974 R-90S BMW
1978 Moto Guzzi 850T3
2008 Beta 250 Rev3 Trials Bike
Sherco, Beta, and GasGas dealer

#10 saltydog

saltydog

    Active Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 44 posts
  • Joined:20-November 06
  • Interests:Motorcycle Touring, Sailing, Hotair Balloons, Banjo

Posted 30 November 2006 - 11:13 PM

Thanks for all the response.  Sounds like I should use what is recommended until the engine and all break in. To use synthetic or not to use has been a long conversation with other bikes as well.  I still can't understand how an engine that has more oil avaiable could run hotter.  The point about not hitting something does make sense though.

#11 greenmachine

greenmachine

    Russian Bike Nut

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 4,085 posts
  • Joined:05-January 04
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Apache Junction, Arizona

Posted 30 November 2006 - 11:46 PM

Don't assume that russian engines or gearboxes are made with " modern " materials throughout.
There are reasons that the factory tells folks to use motor oil in the gearbox. There are still bronze materials in the bushings of the gearbox I'm told.
The seals used to be a problem if folks used synthetic oils. Semi-synthetic worked much better on the seals. They need some dino oil molecules to keep healthy apparently. This last year most of the seals have been changed, but again don't assume ALL engines or gearboxes have the new seals.

For what it's worth, I've always used plain motor oil and had no issues in many thousands of miles. I do still use Hyperlube/Lucas in all the orifices. Things seem to lube better with it than without it. I put on a lot of mileage compared to most rigs and I can't see using expensive oil in these machines. Just change the oil often. You have to no matter what oil is being used.

No, I don't use a deep sump. If I did I would suggest using the extended pickup.

JMHO

kermitski
Former Frog-Meister
Rode around the block a couple times
and got rid of that goofy thing...

#12 Serious Black

Serious Black

    Russian Bike Nut

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3,636 posts
  • Joined:16-November 04
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Norway
  • Interests:Bikes
    History
    Engine tuning

Posted 01 December 2006 - 07:09 AM

Interestingly enough Ural recommend gear oil in the gearbox and transmission in europe. Don't know why their is a difference, may'be we thrash 'em' harder! I use 5w/50 synthetic in th engine and 75w/90 in the box and transmission. I can get the synthetic cheap and it makes a noticeable difference. As to the gear oil in the gearbox, sounds logical to me. They recommend 80w90 or 85w90.
The devil is in the detail.

#13 Driveshaft

Driveshaft

    Active Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 86 posts
  • Joined:12-November 05
  • Location:Concord, NC

Posted 01 December 2006 - 07:26 AM

No matter what any of us say or think, Kermy is correct.  He has more miles on these rigs than probably any ten of us on this forum combined, and there just is no substitute for experience.

There are probably thousands of BMWs, Moto Guzzis, and one or two Harleys out there that have many thousands of trouble free miles without even smelling a synthetic lubricant of any kind.  Global warming pundits aside, it is not hotter enough today than it was fifty years ago to make one bit of difference about what kind of oil you need to run in these engines.  

These bikes, like BMWs, have traversed the world in far more hostile environments using non-synthetic lubricants than most of us will ever see.  I believe that if you can afford to use modern name brand synthetic lubricants when the time is right and your newer Ural engine is thoroughly broken in, then by all means do so.  Warm fuzzies all around.  But, in the long run, I dont think it is going to make any difference in how long your engine is going to run without needing a rebuild, and the money that you will save by not paying the additional cost for a synthetic oil would almost pay for a top end rebuild anyway.

All that being said, I do know that my tranny started shifting better, smoother, and made far less noise when shifting after I changed the oil and installed Red Lines Heavy ShockProof gear oil than it did before I changed the oil.  When due, I will use it in the rear end also.
Jim McKenzie
2006 Patrol (Fug)
1995 RS-125 Honda GP Roadracer
1977 XS-650 Yamaha
1974 R-90S BMW
1978 Moto Guzzi 850T3
2008 Beta 250 Rev3 Trials Bike
Sherco, Beta, and GasGas dealer

#14 saltydog

saltydog

    Active Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 44 posts
  • Joined:20-November 06
  • Interests:Motorcycle Touring, Sailing, Hotair Balloons, Banjo

Posted 01 December 2006 - 09:32 AM

Thanks again for the feedback.  The high milege experience is certainly a real test.

#15 Dubliner15

Dubliner15

    Russian Bike Nut

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3,740 posts
  • Joined:29-August 04
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sverige
  • Interests:Bikes, beer and babes... and flight simulators...<br><br>Books, books, dogs, beer (did I already mention beer?) beer, and the rustier things in life :)

Posted 01 December 2006 - 11:26 AM

Lubrication?

Ask JohnBG - he'll set you straight - I think it was two sixpacks a day and some WD40 as a chaser

:lol:

Well.... someone had to....

;)

Dub
ДЧ6

::::::::::::::::::::::::::
1990 Dnepr OHV 'Fidelma' - K750 tank, K68 carbs, five coats of black paint, lots of tinkering and some expert advice.
1991 Dnepr OHV 'Brandbilen' - work in progress - RAL 7021 make-up on an underused pig.

::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Dub's Dnepr

Russian bikes are not a mode of transport - they are a test of character.

It's always DneprTime




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users