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#1 IMZman

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Posted 01 October 2006 - 03:43 PM

In my never ending (it seems) Denso adapter story, you might remember that 5 months ago I posted a tome on my first Denso alternator adapter crapping out by having the bearings self destruct...taking out my timing gears from the slop in the alternator gear shaft. IMWA promptly sent me a replacement...which lasted 6000 km's before I heard the distinct clatter of cam gear to alternator gear slop. Just imagine a hammer skipping along the cam gear as it goes around....tink, ta tink, ta tink tink, tink.

Anyhow, I pulled the Denso and found play in the shaft on this one too. I disassembled the adapter and the two bearing fell right out of the housing into my hand. They had spun in the housing and the first bearing inner race had fore/aft slop while the 2nd bearing was o.k.. Removed the distributor cover and found 2 chipped teeth on the cam gear.

Since I have 4 or 5 rebuilt Russkie juice makers laying on my parts shelf; I decided to roll the dice and pop one of them in my spare engine until I can re-engineer the Russkie adapter with a metal sleeve for the bearings. This might prevent or delay them spinning in the case. I figure if I get another Denso unit from IMWA I'll just possibly face the same fate within a year. We can rebuild it...we can make it better...the six million dollar Denso!

Since building up the spare engine, I have been itching to try it out...so here is my big opportunity to see how good or bad my rebuilding skills are (this is my first total engine rebuild ever). My URAL commiserating buddy John Grocke (a.k.a. JohnJG) came over this morning at 0830 to observe and give me a hand hoisting the sick engine out and the rebuilt engine in. Thank you, thank you, thank you for saving my poor beat up spine. A second person makes lifting the engine almost a piece of cake!  Anyway, John added a few more curse words to his vocabulary listening to me tell him how easy it is to swap an engine. A few hours later and the beast fired to life. I treated John to a Mexican lunch for his labor expenses. No pie shops near by-so I couldn't get off cheap like them NW Pod guys :-(

17 high rpm ring seating km's later she's still ticking and no oil leaks, Russkie 35 amp unit is noisily humming away with no glowing alt. light...the URAL Gods are favoribly smiling upon me for the moment. Now I've got to finish rebuilding my spare 2wd final drive and then tear the sick engine down and replace all the guts with new...hopefully I'll have that done before this engine eats itself. Man this shiiit is FUN!
Bill Glaser
2002 Patrol "CYKA"
200,000+ km's since May 2002
Click here to go to: "The Unofficial URAL 750cc Service Manual"

#2 DaveO

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Posted 01 October 2006 - 04:26 PM

What are the odds of having it happening to the same guy twice? :huh:  that sucks Bill, I'm sorry. There must be some others though too?...... Mine started making an odd noise up there this week also, kind of a metal ping-ping-tink thing....let us know what you find Please!
Dave O
CMSI '00 Patrol

#3 IMZman

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Posted 01 October 2006 - 05:02 PM

Well DaveO...I've had a 40+ year machinist and a 40 year bearing shop owner tell me that the bearings used in the adapter are wrong for the application. Just their opinion mind you, but these guys have over 80 years between them looking at this stuff. The machinist fella is an Englishman who used to make gears for the company that made MG's and whatever way back when...he might make me a bronze cam gear when I can afford it...he has all the gear cutters in his shop.

What I found in both of these adapters is the bearings sling out their grease (or it heats up and dries out) which leads to failure of some sort; cage/bearings get eaten up and/or the bearings spin in the housing which renders it useless unless machined for a sleeve to bring it back to proper diameter. When the bearings go, it allows the alternator drive shaft to wobble up/down and/or fore/aft, the end result being the alternator gear bounces around on the cam gear eating it up little be little. Also, with this failure the cushions in the cush drive are all buggered up, ripped/torn...so something was binding up at some point.

The old 35amp Russkie units would blow a regulator, short a winding and stop working...or worst case scenario a bearing would freeze or cooling fan fin would shuck off fragging the stator causing things to come to an abrupt halt...resulting in timing gear distruction. Either way, the alternator would stop working. The sinister thing with the Denso is you have the cushion drive between the adapter and alternator AND you have a high quality Japanese built alternator...so, the alternator is not crapping out when the adapter takes a shiit...I figure a few other folks must be running around fat, dumb and happy because the alternator is making juice...but the adapter is slowly chipping away at the gear tower. I could have kept going for another 5, maybe 10,000 km's before all hell broke loose in the timing tower...I just noticed the grumbling sound and knew what it was...so I got it before it took a total dump.

Anyway...I figure either I'm a dumbshiit and am doing something wrong to cause this or, something in the engine is buggered causing (I'll find it when I tear it down) or lastly...the figgin' Russian adapter is the weak link. Can you guess what I'm laying my money on???

So I think it wouldn't be a bad idea to pull your Denso once a year and check for any play of the shaft and gear. Take a look at the teeth face surfaces of the alternator gear and cam gear (through the alt. mounting slot) and see if the are smooth and shiny (good) or look like they've been beaten with a mini ball peen hammer (bad). Change the bearings (if they haven't spun and oversized the adapter) and you'll be good.
Bill Glaser
2002 Patrol "CYKA"
200,000+ km's since May 2002
Click here to go to: "The Unofficial URAL 750cc Service Manual"

#4 Gummiente

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Posted 01 October 2006 - 05:58 PM

Had to replace the alternator, adapter and timing gears at just over 16,000km. The symptoms and causes were identical to yours; a spun bearing that put an extra load on the timing gears and shredded them. I knew there was a problem when the normal "shrieking" noise got louder and didn't subside after the 80kmh mark like it always had since new. Had lots of thin metal shavings in the oil, too.

I'm now at 20,000km with the new alternator and gears, so far, so good.

I'm curious as to how/why the grease slung away on your bearings. I took a look at the old adapter on mine and it had sealed bearings in it, with high temp shields. Normally these hold all the lubricant in, but perhaps in conditions of extreme heat the grease liquefies and leaks out...?
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#5 IMZman

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Posted 01 October 2006 - 06:38 PM

My bearing guru says the grease in those bearings is not a high temp grease and will liquify and burn off/ leak out (can't remember his exact phraseology) leaving the bearings dry. He says those bearings (#6204 2RS?? I'm tired, not sure if that's correct) are not meant to perform in the environment they live in.
Bill Glaser
2002 Patrol "CYKA"
200,000+ km's since May 2002
Click here to go to: "The Unofficial URAL 750cc Service Manual"

#6 JohnBG

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Posted 01 October 2006 - 07:04 PM

Bill Glaser, on Oct 1 2006, 03:43 PM, said:

My URAL commiserating buddy John Grocke (a.k.a. JohnJG) came over this morning at 0830 to observe and give me a hand hoisting the sick engine out and the rebuilt engine in. Thank you, thank you, thank you for saving my poor beat up spine. A second person makes lifting the engine almost a piece of cake!  Anyway, John added a few more curse words to his vocabulary listening to me tell him how easy it is to swap an engine. A few hours later and the beast fired to life. I treated John to a Mexican lunch for his labor expenses. No pie shops near by-so I couldn't get off cheap like them NW Pod guys :-(

17 high rpm ring seating km's later she's still ticking and no oil leaks, Russkie 35 amp unit is noisily humming away with no glowing alt. light...the URAL Gods are favoribly smiling upon me for the moment. Now I've got to finish rebuilding my spare 2wd final drive and then tear the sick engine down and replace all the guts with new...hopefully I'll have that done before this engine eats itself. Man this shiiit is FUN!
Glad I could help ya.  It's about time I can help you, instead of vice-versa!   ;)  

But truth be told, I was just an engine-lugger and a tool-getter/hander for mosta the day, but I did get to play "grasshopper" and learn the method of how to remove and reinstall a motor from the "master".  

Bill is being humble, but truth be told this motor we installed was the one he completely disassembled (including the crank) and rebuilt.  We put that sucker in there and in spite of a stripped thread or two, a minor electrical gremlin and a quick reroute of a fuel line, that rebuilt motor started on the first try and ran like a top.  The only noise you could hear was that goofy 35A RPOC alternator.  He was humming down the road no problemo to cantina.

Sheesh! Bill, you're tearing up these Densos like Randy was chewing up 35A alternators!  :surprise:  Seriously, after seeing it happen to Bill twice and hearing of Gummi's similar tale, methinks there is an achille's heel in that Rooskie Denso adapter.  The Denso unit is fine, but the adapter bearings seem to need a little work.  Bill's got an idea that might help fix it.
John Grocke (a.k.a. JohnBG)
1998.5 Ural Tourist 650 - "Valentina" - The Blonde
2006 Ural Raven 750 - "Vorona" - The Brunette

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#7 greenmachine

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Posted 01 October 2006 - 07:05 PM

We got rid of the RPOC alternator, and it was replaced by the RPOC coupler. This is cheaper than the alternator to replace, but the gears still cost the same as well as all the stuff attached to them.....

Please. STOP IT . Yer gonna ruin our street creds......


I still haven't changed my alternator gear out. I'm gonna make another little road trip this week to western Wiscaaaansin so I didn't want to mess with the thing until I get back. Assuming I get back...... etc......
Mine is not hammering or anything, just the usual beginnings of the death rattle which I can hear above the normal gear whine up front. The alternator itself runs peachy. This one has about 80 thou on it in about 13 months. Now that the warranty is gone I can eat the coupler repairs like a MAN. I got a shiny new alternator gear sitting on my work bench so I'll probably see how it goes in there after this week.

Remember: Loud gears save lives!

kermitski
Former Frog-Meister
Rode around the block a couple times
and got rid of that goofy thing...

#8 Gummiente

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Posted 01 October 2006 - 07:06 PM

6204 sounds about right, it's a common size for industrial electric motors (the "2RS" means that it has rubber shields on both sides). The bearings on mine had the red nitrile rubber shields, which is the high temp application. Maybe they're not high enough? At any rate, I'm very interested in hearing what your bearing guru recommends as a replacement; as a Millwright I have access to all kinds of bearings and could easily order in the correct style/type.
Mike "Gummiente" Palmer
oVc Sales & Service
www.uralontario.ca

#9 DaveO

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Posted 01 October 2006 - 07:14 PM

Well, I should Thank You for posting Bill!  I have my gas tank off anyhow for  some POR-15 therapy.... so I went ahead and pulled the alternator off the adapter, the alternator spun nice and freely... the adapter gear lash was about right, ...different everywhere I checked ;) as usual. Then pulled the adaptor off, it spun freely, didn't seem too lubed up though. The cam gear is fine as is the alt. gear...So I pulled the alt. gear off the adapter and removed the shaft assy', retainer and bearings. The bearings were, as you know, double sealed and of the same type, caged balls, with a spacer between the bearing sets....the grease in them was minimal, black and burnt looking....The bearings were relatively snug in the adapter, but a closer look at the housing showed they had started to spin up some....bummer. So close to a good design, and they blow it...WTF!! So I'm going to try to rectify this correctly, more or less. The first thing will be to replace the forward bearing with a tapered roller bearing, for the thrust loading, not sure how this will play out yet till I get the bearing and take measurements. I'm pretty sure this bearing will be wider than the ball bearing, so the adapter may need to machined some (but there is a spacer there too, that may be able to be eliminated). The inner bearing will remain a ball bearing. After some measuring, it looks as though you can drill a long port into the flange that holds the adapter to the engine, the flange where the 2 studs go through, and tap it for a zerk fitting. This will get you grease between the bearing sets, a little dremel work to open up a pocket and it should be workable, after removing the seal on the inner side of each bearing set.... I'll be finding out more tomorrow after a trip to the bearing house.
Thanks Again!

Attached Files


Dave O
CMSI '00 Patrol

#10 IMZman

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Posted 01 October 2006 - 08:53 PM

Gummy...I just a dumb kid from the swamps of Central FL...ask me how to wrestle a 'gator or poach a pig (steer, deer, turkey....) and I'm the guy...but things mechancial (outside of weapons and things that go "BOOM") and I'm a little thumby. But if my pea size brain remembers correctly Azza, my Iranian bearing buddy, said something about the first bearing should be a tapered (some sort of) bearing to deal with the blah blah blah stresses/forces and the second should be a roller bearing for the other blah blah forces...and they should be able to be greased via a zerk. He did a depth measurement on the adapter where the bearings seat and said it would need machining to fit whatever bearings he was speaking of. Personally, I think if you zerk it and pump grease in there it is going to peese grease all over the top of the engine and maybe find it's way back into the Denso...which ain't good...'cause after all...it's a fractional Russian seal (Read: NOT AVAILABLE AFTERMARKET). 'Course...while reinventing the wheel...one could machine the adapter to take a standard size seal. Hey...it's only money right? And the tree I got growing out back is just loaded with the green stuff...oh, wait...those are limes!

DaveO...glad you took a peek. My first adapter failure was a doosey. I ran that S.O.B. until it was squealin' red hot. When I took it apart, the first bearing had no seals and the ball cage was gone...that's right...graphite dust. I daamn near ground that someofabitch into oblivion. The second bearing was bone dry and would turn with moderate force. Both had galled to the gear shaft and needed liberal application of torch heat and a 20 ton press to seperate. It kept my machinist friend occupied for 1.5 hours...he was not amused. He wanted to know what assshole ran the thing to that point...I just smiled, I was so proud of myself (Mr. COB's got a long way to go to learn my technique of destruction). The seal was worn paper thin by the bearings spinning 'round in the housing...but that damn Denso kept putting out juice through all that abuse. Again, I think this is what will lull most Denso owners to sleep. The Russkie 35amper's would just shiit and get it over with...big red light on panel blaring at you. This adapter death is insideous and slow...like Russian vodka posioning. What will they think of in '07 to torture us with? They will never break us though...try as the might...we will win...we will come out on top (here's where we break out in unison singing, "We Are The Champions"...)...they will have to pry my URAL from my cold dead hands...crap, off in my fantasy world again...if they only made the timing gears as tough as the Denso.

Kermie...are you Irish? You gotta be the luckiest S.O.B runnin' a OOral going! Bastaad, ashhole, hate lucky f#ckers like you...you'd prob'ly come to FL and win LOTTO staight off...hope you get a flat...ya flat bastaad. Oh...nevermind.
Bill Glaser
2002 Patrol "CYKA"
200,000+ km's since May 2002
Click here to go to: "The Unofficial URAL 750cc Service Manual"

#11 wyowillys46

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Posted 02 October 2006 - 12:04 AM

Well, this is an interesting revelation into alternator failures. I'm surprised someone didn't notice it before. Anytime you have helical gears you have THRUST. Why didn't they install a tapered roller bearing in the adapter? No wonder these things have been exploding or seizing. Look at the alternator gear and the direction it turns in the engine. It's creating axial thrust towards the adapter. Seems like an awefully large oversight.
Morgan

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#12 Ken Ulrich

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Posted 02 October 2006 - 12:07 AM

Well guys, listen up a bit, that nifty alt spins at 1.6 times eng rpm, that means if you are buzzing along at 65-70, and let say you are turning engine rpm at 6ooo, that nifty denso is spinning at a hefty 9600 rpm. No doubt in my mind that the denso has some very high quality bearings, that are not always available to our friends on the other side. So if you love to whip the pants off your Ural, and you are having to redo the adapter every now and then, here is some tricks, most bearing suppliers stock a Loc-tite product that will, when applied to a new bearing in a casting that has spun a bearing in it, will take up as much as .010 slack. Thats one thing, the other is that there are high grade and high temp application bearings out there, they will cost more. I needed new bearings in my surface grinder, as it turns up at a frightful speed. The place that I find very useful is motion industries. Or you may get lucky looking up bearings on the net and will find several pages of suppliers, try to get to a bearing consultant where ever you go and report back to all of us...who knows , this may be an irbit up grade next year....Ken :feelssogood:

#13 VWNate1

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Posted 02 October 2006 - 08:57 AM

...And here I'm still running the used Rusian 35amp. alternator John (I think) kindly mailed to me 18,000 miles ago.....

I just hand checked the mesh when I installed it , no less than .004 in any spot (yes , it varies all over the place , is why you gotta take some time to check various mesh points) and it's still humming along , makes a fair amount of noise on the original timing gears but never gets any louder so I'll leave it and keep on with the short(ish) hot oil changes , not finding any SWARF in the filter these days...

Kermit , WHAT ' street cred ' ?!  :lol:
-Nate
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#14 JohnBG

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Posted 02 October 2006 - 10:28 AM

Ken Ulrich, on Oct 2 2006, 12:07 AM, said:

Well guys, listen up a bit, that nifty alt spins at 1.6 times eng rpm, that means if you are buzzing along at 65-70, and let say you are turning engine rpm at 6ooo, that nifty denso is spinning at a hefty 9600 rpm.
Never mind the bearings in the Russian adapter coupler, is the Denso unit itself capable of sustaining 9600 rpm?  :huh:
John Grocke (a.k.a. JohnBG)
1998.5 Ural Tourist 650 - "Valentina" - The Blonde
2006 Ural Raven 750 - "Vorona" - The Brunette

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#15 greenmachine

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Posted 02 October 2006 - 12:53 PM

I don't think MI would have the fractional bearing size. I'm assuming you can machine a coupler and sleeve the shaft to take an available bearing size if you wanted to go to the trouble and expense. Would it be better to use a "barrel " or "dual roller " type bearing? I dunno.

There was no " oversight " as to the thrust issues on the helical front gear. The IMZ folks are VERY familiar with the issues involved. They chose a rather strange "solution" for probably supply reasons but I'm not privy to what their thought process was in any case.

We all get our panties in a pile every time anybody has a problem with these alternators, mainly due to the real fear of trashing the whole freakin engine due to broken alternator /timing gear. The numbers are probably in favor of the IMZ in that very few units have had troubles. On the other hand, very few units have any real mileage on them AND MANY could be trash and still running " fine " as far as the owners are concerned.

I've always been lucky with the alternator issues myself AND it has always been my pet gripe.

Lee Pape has been running his custom made coupler for several years without any issues that I know of. I'm not sure he has a lot of mileage racked up though. I'm sure Lee could maybe comment on the bearing issues if contacted via the IMWA board or directly. He doesn't always monitor this board I don't think.

I hope you guys with some skills and knowledge figure out a way to make the couplers more reliable and trouble free. I'm too lazy and brainless to tackle the job but will JUMP on the fruits of YOUR labors....

;-)
kermitski
Former Frog-Meister
Rode around the block a couple times
and got rid of that goofy thing...




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