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Flat head ignition to replace PM-05 cable operated unit

C5 Ignition Ken Ulrich Lorne Ulrich K750 flathead optical ignition

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#1 C5Paul

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 09:42 PM

The past few weeks I have been working on a new ignition for the flat head models using the PM-05 ignition.
Our goal is to remove the entire cable operated "points" type system and replace with a C5 ignition (Power Arc based).

Since many of these will end up in non-English speaking countries, and probably in small villages, we insist on creating a kit that does not require any drilling or tapping, no camshaft modifications, and could be reversible. Easy to install, easy to use!

Ken and Lorne Ulrich have engines, cams, and motorcycles for this project. I live about an hour away so we've been using U2 Cycles as our "home base" with my materials. What else can you do when the weather is -15 F?

First we measured the cam end (inside and out) and all critical heights. Using our existing C5 Ignition kit we created spacers and a new part to hold the encoder disc. The cams on the flat head engine are not threaded for a screw.

Today Lorne and I installed and made notes to change a few small things. My machinist is now making a few parts so we can test several designs to securely hold the encoder disc. I am very pleased with the outcome so far, and Lorne was a big help as usual.
Even though Ken is on vacation in Texas, we decided to share a few pictures with the forum.

While I make the parts, Lorne is focusing on getting one of their flat heads up and running. When the weather gets above zero we can test ride.

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#2 dneprlover

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Posted 06 March 2015 - 04:40 AM

View PostC5Paul, on 05 March 2015 - 09:42 PM, said:

The past few weeks I have been working on a new ignition for the flat head models using the PM-05 ignition.
Our goal is to remove the entire cable operated "points" type system and replace with a C5 ignition (Power Arc based).

Since many of these will end up in non-English speaking countries, and probably in small villages, we insist on creating a kit that does not require any drilling or tapping, no camshaft modifications, and could be reversible. Easy to install, easy to use!



I think you need to re do your marketing research. The bikes that are still running in the villages of non-english speaking countries are kept going by ingenuity and the availability of parts that are extremely cheap by USA standards ( a suitable type III ignition is available  for manual advance/retard systems for less than $40 in the ex Soviet countries). Why should they buy your unit at a much higher price and have the spares problems that USA supply will entail. Their incomes are extremely limited and restoration is not a priority for most

Your market will actually be a much smaller one almost entirely confined to the restorers of the USA and to a much smaller extent the eec/Scandinavia

#3 waterdawg2004

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Posted 06 March 2015 - 05:42 AM

Don't discourage him, I need one of these.

#4 dneprlover

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Posted 07 March 2015 - 02:50 AM

Not trying to discourage him, just trying to inject a little realism. Experimentation and development is always a good thing and he is to be admired for taking the project on. Choice in components expands the possibilities when building up our chosen steeds.

#5 C5Paul

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Posted 08 March 2015 - 09:57 PM

I am not offended or discouraged. I was told our Goldwing kit would never sell (and it does), I was told British bike owners are too cheap (and they sell), and last year the Moto Guzzi crowd told me nobody would buy our products (but I ran out of kits after 4 months).

I believe they will sell because people want reliability and performance. Everyone who uses a PowerArc based ignition already knows this. I would never use my stock Russian ignition once I rode it with our C5 kit installed. I don't care how much it costs, the bike starts and runs 100% better.

Flat head engines have poor combustion design and suffer from hot/cold and lean/rich mixture issues far more than OHV engines do. If anything needs multiple sparking these do!


I've already got two people ready to import these kits so time will tell how successful this becomes. The kits will be ready to go in about a week.

#6 dneprlover

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Posted 09 March 2015 - 04:21 AM

I must admit that flat heads do need as much help as one can give them and I can certainly see the Germans going for these ignitions as they seem to be well into the early bikes.

One of the things I am often asked for is translations of instruction sheets. If you could supply those in the common continental languages such as German , French and Spanish as well as English, that would possibly be a sales help. I have been told that only supplying details in English is seen as arrogant in some areas, especially in some of the more prominent EEC countries.

#7 C5Paul

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Posted 10 March 2015 - 11:40 AM

View Postdneprlover, on 09 March 2015 - 04:21 AM, said:

I must admit that flat heads do need as much help as one can give them and I can certainly see the Germans going for these ignitions as they seem to be well into the early bikes.

One of the things I am often asked for is translations of instruction sheets. If you could supply those in the common continental languages such as German , French and Spanish as well as English, that would possibly be a sales help. I have been told that only supplying details in English is seen as arrogant in some areas, especially in some of the more prominent EEC countries.

My daughter and I talked about that. She speaks a bit of French. That is a great idea and could easily be accomplished. Our installation guides have color photos and we also provide a color coded wiring diagram. We could convert the text to any language needed.
This is our guide:
http://www.c5ignitio...stall_guide.pdf

Yesterday our machinist made a few of the center posts so I can ship the orders I have. Now I must find others who have interest and decide how many parts to manufacture. Thank you for the input.

What languages would be most helpful? We could probably do any translation needed.

#8 dneprlover

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Posted 10 March 2015 - 04:35 PM

As stated , French , Spanish and German. This will cover 85 % of the world.

In your pdf. Put the international sign for earth next to the word ground in every case. Ground is a fairly USA specific term that many countries won't recognise . Can't see any reference to points system .  possibly a front page showing pictures of every system yours will replace. Pictures are all Ural based.

What does the manufacturers tool look like for finding TDC on a Ural or Dnepr? I have never seen or heard of one , and which is no.1 cylinder?

#9 Peter Williams

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Posted 10 March 2015 - 06:07 PM

Will it work properly on a 6V system? The SOATE (aka Type III) works on six volts but requires a good generator, regulator and top notch battery.

#10 C5Paul

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Posted 10 March 2015 - 09:49 PM

View PostPeter Williams, on 10 March 2015 - 06:07 PM, said:

Will it work properly on a 6V system? The SOATE (aka Type III) works on six volts but requires a good generator, regulator and top notch battery.

We make 6 and 12 volt systems. Positive or negative ground (earth) will be included in this kit. Since we just made the first production parts for this kit yesterday, I will have to take pictures and write a new installation manual for it. If the generator does not require a battery to operate, the end user could use a capacitor and our battery eliminator kit such as we use for British kits. Thank you for the input gentleman, it helps us get it right the first time!

#11 ARozanski

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 04:58 PM

I have to say I am very interested in this. My rig has a 12VDC, negative ground, manual advance points system. So far it has been okay, but I wouldn't mind an upgrade to replace the points. I have a dual output coil (maybe a Harley unit, not sure). Based on your instructions, there would be one ignition wire coming out of the coil, then spliced into two, one for each plug?

I have a 1981 Neval (Dnepr), I have been told the points/timing system is similar (or identical) to a K750, not sure of the exact description.
1981 Neval/Dnepr, 2002 H-D Fatboy

#12 Serious Black

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Posted 09 April 2015 - 12:14 PM

In the UK people have been modifying Boyer Brandsen ignition for a long time now. Cheap and effective. From Russian there is a bolt on system that uses a hall effect ignition that works well, better than the Boyer. The early type had two interrupters that have a habit of breaking off. Later have slots in which I would I would expect to have cured the problem. I understand this functions with a 6v system. Anybody producing another electronic ignition needs to be able to compete against these systems.
The devil is in the detail.





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