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Obama for Prez?


sprintstrider
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okay, thanks for answering the question according to strict Islamic belief. So what about the Iraqi Christians I saw in a news show the other day. Are they doomed? I just find this all a little weird, I don't think all followers of Islam follow it word for word, just like many Christians do not take the bible literally and allow for interpetation, probably the reason we have so many different Christian groups.

 

Many of those Iraqi Christians were born Christians. The Christians actually did have freedom of religion and protection under Saddam, as long as they were in step with him politically. Now with secular Saddam gone, those same Christians are being persecuted by the religion of peace and tolerence so in a sense, they are doomed especially if this new "secular" government is replaced with a theocracy. I have read reports of Iraqi Christains fleeing in droves to the US and Lebanon.

 

There was a case just last year of a Pakistani man who converted to Christianity and was caught, put on "trial" and condemned to death by the state. Only the intervention of the US, EU and the Pope saved this man's hide and I believe he and his family are in Italy now in hiding.

 

No, not all muslims take the koran at face value. The media portrays and gives plenty of time to the nut jobs out there who have been brainwashed by these death cult imams. The nuttier they are, the more air time they get. :smile:

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:beerchug:

This is sort of what I was getting at "in name only." I am not and have not asked a US Marine...but I bet if you did ask a US Marine...he would not take lightly the idea that I am a US Marine, but I don't read the manual..I'm just a little different kind of US Marine?? I am not sure he would agree that you are a Marine.

 

I have no idea what you are talking about, are you saying Marines are a religion?

 

Also, here are some bible verses when taken out of context could be take as violent

 

Luke 19:26 But as for these enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them-bring them here and slaughter them in my presence.

 

Matthew 10:34 Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.

 

Dueteronomy 21:18-21 If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father and mother, who dos not heed them when they discipline him, then his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of the his town at the gate of the that place. They shall say to the elders of his town, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard." Then all the men of the town shall stone him to death. So you shall purge the evil from your midst; and all Israel will hear, and be afraid. ( I think this one is a good idea :blink: )

 

Numbers 31: 17,18 Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known a man by sleeping with him. But all the young girls who have not known a man by sleeping with him, keep alive for yourselves.

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Peter...You had to get all brainy with the mono, manyo, quadrupothieioism stuff. I can't ever keep all those straight to save my life so I cannot comment. ..... As far as one god at a time...no basis in Scripture fella. I won't go there and I am sure Adonai would think it is typical approach of man. As Ben Franklin said.."you can't solve problems with the same brain that created them.." :blink:

 

I hadn't heard of "Kathenotheism" until yesterday when I looked something else up. I just thought it's kind of funny how one can think to have heard it all and then there is a whole new concept: Kathenotheism.

 

"Intelligent Design" leads down a most interesting path. If you are not careful you may wake up one day with some strange bedfellows...

 

Peter

 

Edit: Here is what one christian sect thinks about creationism/intelligent design. Myself, I'm kind of not very interested in the question if it's pagan or not. Have not heard anything particularly bad about them pagans. I do think though that creationism/intelligent design should be taught in school as it is likely the only way kids can come into contact with the old nature religion way of thinking.

 

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article....RTICLE_ID=50088

 

There is more like that from other quarters on the net.

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:P
This is sort of what I was getting at "in name only." I am not and have not asked a US Marine...but I bet if you did ask a US Marine...he would not take lightly the idea that I am a US Marine, but I don't read the manual..I'm just a little different kind of US Marine?? I am not sure he would agree that you are a Marine.

 

I have no idea what you are talking about, are you saying Marines are a religion?

 

 

No ..maybe some would say yes, but what I am saying is that someone who says they are a _______, but then doesn't follow or suscribe to basic philosophy as described in the written text could be challenged as someone who uses the philosophy to further their own agenda and present the true followers in a bad light.

 

 

Also, here are some bible verses when taken out of context could be take as violent

 

Luke 19:26 But as for these enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them-bring them here and slaughter them in my presence.

 

Matthew 10:34 Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.

 

Dueteronomy 21:18-21 If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father and mother, who dos not heed them when they discipline him, then his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of the his town at the gate of the that place. They shall say to the elders of his town, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard." Then all the men of the town shall stone him to death. So you shall purge the evil from your midst; and all Israel will hear, and be afraid. ( I think this one is a good idea :beerchug: )

 

Numbers 31: 17,18 Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known a man by sleeping with him. But all the young girls who have not known a man by sleeping with him, keep alive for yourselves.

 

 

 

I agree that taken out of context man can bastardize the word of God into whatever you want to suit yur own purpose. Again I think it sepaks to the imporance of regular Bible study and truly undertsanding the context of what they are saying. It is interesting how violence is frequently in the Bible and no where does it say that if you are Christian and believe in Jesus that violence will not occur, read the book of Job. :blink:

 

Peter, wanna point me in a direction for where you find the "strange bedfellows" you refer to?

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Be afriad. Be VERY afraid.

 

2,000 years from now people may be quoting the SEARS catalogue (just foreign reference that some of you may get)....

 

What has happened to the USA? Where did all these bible-thumpers and God-botherers come from?

 

Someone fell asleep on their watch?

 

Take me home, country road..... thank Dog that you have an communist motorcyle that has no Dog. It may lead you to the truth, eventually. Those cage drivers are the DeViL incarnate....

 

 

 

:blink:

 

Dubnormal

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Dub, a serious answer to at least one of your questions.

 

Every 90 years or so the US goes through a period of extreme conservatism. The cycle is long enough that no one remembers the last one, but it's pretty predictable. The last such was the 1920's, marked by, among other things, the second round of enforced prohibition. We're well into another such conservatively religious cycle now; expect it to get worse, not better, for a while.

 

My theory is that we're genetically pre-disposed to be a little more aggressive, a little more out-there, than our relatives in Europe where many of us have our roots. Think about it; the early settlers in this country were the ones who didn't fit in, so they left or were forced to leave. For example, the pilgrims and their ilk came here to practice their particular brand of religious intolerance because they were misfits, not content to leave others alone. They pretty much had to leave because their neighbors weren't having any more of their crap. Is it any surprise that their descendents carry on that tradition? The tolerant ones stayed behind because they were able to get along; the intolerant came here.

 

And each wave of immigrants brings its own variation on the underlying theme of not fitting in, not wanting to settle for whatever they had back home, wanting to do better. This is good and bad; good in bringing fresh vigor and ambition; bad in often bringing with it a new set of prejudices and problems.

 

Another thing; we are a very inhomogeneous nation, despite efforts to make us so (usually attempts to force the rest to believe like a minority subset of the population). This can sometimes be confusing. Do not think we are all bible-thumpers, or libertines, or any other single category. Fortunately, our political and social systems are sufficiently unwieldy that all attempts to force homogeneity are doomed.

 

Flame suit on!

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Please-please-please-pretty please- pleeeeeeeeeeeease let the Dems nominate Hillary. I can save a good $1000 in political donations if they do. She would guarantee a Repulican President in '08.

 

How about Sandy Berger. He at least is a loyal thief. Obama is just today's eye candy. He is being put out there as the great white Liberal hope and the straw man for Hillary to knock down.

 

 

Please-please-pretty please let it work.

 

With sugar on top?

 

Jeb in '08!!!

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Peter, wanna point me in a direction for where you find the "strange bedfellows" you refer to?

 

I edited my earlier post and there is a link (google: intelligent design superstition). I don't have any particular interest in the matter but I found the pagan link convincing. Please note that to me the pagan/christian problem appears more like an insider (believer) thing.

 

Peter

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Thanks Sam.. that goes some way towards answering my questions.

 

It still mystifies me how such a multi-cultural society can contain such a strong right-wing christian element (maybe it's because of the influx of opposing viewpoints and the need to 'defend' what's 'right' in their eyes).

 

I'm quite sure that there is also a strong muslim, sufi, jane, buddhist etc. group there... but I never hear from them.

 

Perhaps you are correct about this 'cycle' of fundamentalism and conservatism. Guess we just have to ride this one out....

 

Sometimes I wish I had studied anthroplogy.....and politics.... and theology..... and... well... you get the picture....

 

:blink:

 

Dub

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Dub, a serious answer to at least one of your questions.

 

Every 90 years or so the US goes through a period of extreme conservatism. The cycle is long enough that no one remembers the last one, but it's pretty predictable. The last such was the 1920's, marked by, among other things, the second round of enforced prohibition. We're well into another such conservatively religious cycle now; expect it to get worse, not better, for a while.

 

Of interest also is that currently the "religious right" is equated with evangelical christians in general by many. The track record of evangelical christians is actually far more complex. In the long run they are an individualist lot and cannot agree on anything much except that they won't suffer the tyrant.

Remember, everyone has to figure it out for themselves and His Kingdom is not of this world...

These features of the evangelical christians do produce a rather prickly and not very pliable constituency.

The discussions they unleash do sound extremely strange to european ears though. On the other hand they don't tend to take much crap from anybody which is a quite endearing feature.

 

Peter

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Interesting... seems like they have become somewhat of a force in modern North America though... it seems that the Republicans have pandered to their needs/wishes quite a lot, judging from what we see on TV here in Olde Europe.

 

If, as a group, they are as disparate as you suggest, then their influence will mroe or less disappear with the next election when the Democrats win the presidency.

 

I'm not anti-religion or against people of faith at all... just strikes me that the 'share of voice' of certain groupings is disproportionate - again - from a European perspective....

 

Equality of voice, media control and everything else is a wonderous thing.

 

I'm interested in learning more, not just condemning people becuase of their views - but it doesn't mean I won't make the odd comment that will offend...just like anyone else...

 

Learn and live, as I say....

 

Dub

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The world needs a black muslim president in the USA.....

 

 

Dub-never-go-back

 

 

Sound like somebody is stiring up some .....................hummmmm, how did you say that ..........shyte

 

 

Sweden needs a black muslim president. High crime over there I here

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Dub, the incumbent president, tolerated by about 30% of the constituency and despised by the rest, discovered evangelicals as a voting power block about 15 years ago, and has exploited it ruthlessly, one of the few relatively intelligent moves he's made. When he stopped drinking, more or less (note; not "got sober", a significant difference) he became active in fundamental Christianity in West Texas, a hotbed of self-reliant, John Wayne-ism. The original population of West Texas came from Appalachia, where things were getting crowded; they could see smoke from their neighbors chimneys. These are pretty strong, isolated people.

 

He was very active in mens' Christian groups, and parlayed that into financial support, apparently with the promise, spoken or not, of pushing the evangelical agenda. Our division of voting power is such that a small minority can make the difference; witness the 2000 election, where a few votes in one state were enough.

 

So what we have now is a chief of state supporting a minority religious-political agenda, very loudly I might add; and to the joy of his minority constituency, who you see loudly represented on this forum. He's here for another two years; then we'll have a different flavor. Personally, I think a black man or woman would be at a minimum, not quite the same old crap.

 

You don't hear from the Martian/Buddist/gay/Hindu/Hispanic/etc element much for a couple of reasons.

 

1. there's not much to say, and given the current political climate, it might not be safe to say it. I certainly don't want to be on the "no fly" list.

2. loud and intolerant bashing of others' beliefs has always been a part of Christianity; this is, I think, the fundamental reason why the Romans were so down on Christians. The wouldn't shut up and play ball, but kept insisting that they were right and everybody else was wrong. As you know, the Romans incorporated the religious beliefs of others into their system, looking for similarities in order to expedite conquest; Zeus/Jupiter, etc being obvious examples. The Christians just weren't having any. I suspect Muslims, if there had been any at that time, would have been equally intractable.

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Interesting... seems like they have become somewhat of a force in modern North America though... it seems that the Republicans have pandered to their needs/wishes quite a lot, judging from what we see on TV here in Olde Europe.

 

If, as a group, they are as disparate as you suggest, then their influence will mroe or less disappear with the next election when the Democrats win the presidency.

 

I'm not anti-religion or against people of faith at all... just strikes me that the 'share of voice' of certain groupings is disproportionate - again - from a European perspective....

 

Equality of voice, media control and everything else is a wonderous thing.

 

I'm interested in learning more, not just condemning people becuase of their views - but it doesn't mean I won't make the odd comment that will offend...just like anyone else...

 

Learn and live, as I say....

 

Dub

 

Dear Dub,

 

I know we lauch a few funnies back and forth and I know you have a moderate opinion...I hope in no way you feel that I (speaking only for myself as an evangelical, and a pretty new one at that) with views on the subject of being saved by the Lord Jesus is WAY more then a political viewpoint...it is that I care the eternal souls of the human race as it written in the Bible. I cannot tell you the newfound peace and understanding in my heart since I have come to the Lord. In spite of all my human failings, my motives are clean.

 

There is also much written there about looking for the signs that Jesus warned his Disciples about as warnings. The "watering down" of the Word of God (or apostasy of the Church, the influx of Pagan rituals into the churches, etc etc)...we/I are seeing this. Peter's referral to article above that I just read on Intelligent design is written by a scientist from the Vatican and is precisely the type of stuff that comes in to provide confusion on what the Bible actually says. That website is uaually pretty good, did you note the title, "testing the faith?". Unfortuanltely the Catholics are one of the biggest dividers of Christian believers..they have led many people away from the Word of God and into seperation from God. Anything they say, write or believe should be taken and checked against the text ...The Bible should be taken literally...it also means we need to understand the context that the writer was in at the time..ie hell fire and brimstone sounds rediculous 2000 years ago, but in the nuclear age it is a nice description written by a guy who didn't know even fathom any weapon at all that could look like that...an act of God hell yea. Don't you think it is kinda crazy that they could predict what nuclear weapons would do then?

 

In addition, to have a moderate world view.....I used to have one with "multiculturalism, gay marriage, media control, green houses and cars and how one day maybe we could all just get along since we are all the same people, get rid of war, and we could grow hemp to feed the masses".....hehe and you think I am crazy for being a Christian?!?! IMHO we are at a spiritual battle that requires you to take a side..just because you don't know the enemy doesn't mean you get out of the war. :feelssogood:

 

Those times in history are what I believe are called "revivals." There are some who believe it is the revivals of believers that hold off the judgement of God on the US. Dub, did you know that they predict the Antichrist will come from Europe? There is no US in the Bible.....we desperately need those revivals because we may be gone off the face of the planent just like all the other superpowers of history that came before. The decline of those "superpowers" were characterized by ignorance, apathy, ramapant homosexuality, infanticide, violence, brutality, corruption, ... look at any US news program and ask yourself if the "moderate approach" to politics are making the US better?! Bring on the democrats? :flameon: :rant: They are scary as hell to me now. What was I thinking.....they cannot make it better as it is definitley going to get worse!! Hell maybe they will just bring it on faster...I am saved anyway.

 

Cheers mates :cheers: I enjoy these forays into rants and good stuff for the fun. E

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