Jump to content

Obama for Prez?


sprintstrider
 Share

Recommended Posts

What was the question? :cheers:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 75
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Please point to me in the Declaration of Independence, Constitution, or Bill of Rights that references "separation of church and state". No such thing exists Bear.... Some people take the part of the 1st amendment that reads "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" to mean something different than it was written. It was to prohibit a National religion like in Europe at the time: If the King was Protestant, the country was Protestant. That amend ment lets you worship however you choose without government interference.

 

I would hope that any leader, regardless of their faith, would use their faith and perhaps some divine guidance in the decision making porcess.

 

FWIW, it was Neil Bush and not Jeb that was involved in the S&L's. Get your Bush family straight, will ya?

It wouldn't be in the Constitution, since the Bill of Rights was added to protect the individual from the majority. Many colony states had only one religion and would not allow others, catholics had to move to pennsylvania to worship freely.

 

My apologies it was Niel not that George's hands are clean or Jeb's.

 

Yes, a in a letter, but not in any law, anywhere in this land. Jefferson's intent with that letter (not a law) was to keep the government and states out of the church business or in effect mandating a religion. I agree with this. However it was never intended to remove all aspects of any religion whatsoever from government. The Jeffersonian "wall" is a one-way wall.

 

I love how folks carry this too far, like when a public school choir is prohibited from singing "Santa Claus is coming to town" becuase it "promotes religion" is quite stretching it don't ya think? :laugh:

 

What ya got against future President Jeb Bush anyways? IMO, he's the only possible Republican that beat take Hillary in '08. McCain, Guiliani and Romney won't make it. The die-hard conservatives, anti-abortion groups, and evangelicals will stay away from the polls in droves.

 

Regardless of the First Amendment sidetrack, the media lovefest with Obama will die down in a few weeks/months and Hillary will be in control. Hillary's group willl probably torpedo him, but here's a weird thought: I wouldn't put it past Hillary's team to be actually promoting Obama right now (with a promise that he'd be the VP candidate on the ticket) to keep Edwards and Al Gore form forming their "exploratory committes" and start raising campaign funds. Hillary doesn't have to worry about that as she can move her leftover Senate campaign money (she's got a lot of it). The media can't mention Obama for 30 seconds right now without saying something about Hillary. Free publicity! It's diabolically genius if it's true...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What was the question? :laugh:

 

Sorry Ken. Somethings make sense in my head really but it starts spinning and I am having long conversations with myself via webpost :laugh: .

 

What will our presence be like in the middle east with a "moderate" Muslim trying to effect change with fanatical Islam? Will this bring on more violence? How will they view him? Will they see him as a Muslim who believes his religion should be the only form of government easily swayed to stamp out our constitution in some way or will they see him as worse then a secularist as he "polutes" their religion as someone who doesn't hold fast to the tenets of their faith? Can you have both? What will happen to our relationship with Israel..because if a "moderate" Muslim approaches Israel (whom the fantics wish to "wip off the face of the planet") as the only moderate peaceful nation in the region, what will happen? Will he push for trying to negotiate the hose pucky "peace for land" deal with the terrorists (I mean Palestinians) like every other idiot and how will that go over?
Link to comment
Share on other sites

http://obama.senate.gov/about/ Says he goes to a Christian Church. So why are some people arguing that he is a muslim? Because his parents were? Can one not convert? Seems like the muslim point is mute.

 

 

 

Those who turn their back on Islam are to be put to death. This is confirmed by the words and deeds of Muhammad. There is no such thing as freedom of belief in Islam.

 

 

 

The Qur'an:

Sura (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them"

 

Other verses that seem to support the many Hadith demanding death for apostates are Sura (2:217), Sura (9:73-74), Sura (88:21), Sura (5:54), and Sura (9:66).

 

 

 

From the Hadith:

 

 

 

Bukhari (52:260) - "...The Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "

 

 

 

Bukhari (083:037) - "Allah's Apostle never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: (1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) (2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse and (3) a man who fought against Allah and His Apostle and deserted Islam and became an apostate."

 

 

 

Bukhari (084:057) - "[in the words of] Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

 

 

 

Bukhari (89:271) - A man who embraces Islam, then reverts to Judaism is to be killed according to "the verdict of Allah and his apostle."

 

 

 

Bukhari (84:64-65) - "Allah's Apostle: 'During the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for whoever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection.'"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

:laugh: I must say Yobe, your citing of Quran sums up the point I was getting at, but not nearly as clearly as you have done. It does also highlight some pretty concrete differences between Christianity and Islam...if you choose to not believe in Jesus as your Lord and Savior..that's all fine but you are making a choice to spiritually die and forego eternal life. With Islam, the idea that "we will kill you if you choose anything other then what we say." :laugh: Freewill? How does this correlate with our constitution and stating that government shall not force any one religious practice?

 

As far as Obama belonging to a church...I have not in any way heard him deny being a Muslim or verbally state he believes Jesus is his Lord and Savior. Belonging to a certain church is like going to the gym and not working out...just for show...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So your worried that if elected president Obama would be assasinated because he converted from Islam to Christianity?

 

Me? Nah I am not worried about Obama, Hillary will bury him politically soon enough. I was mearly answering your question about converting from Islam.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The only reason Osama is being touted is that he is identifiable as black, and as such will bring black votes to...Hillery and her camp...I agree that John Mc Cain is the best man on the scene, we need statesmen, not rich boys, we need moderates with regards to Isreal, and we need a "walk quiet, and carry a dam big stick", not the fly swatter attitude of the last four years, we need some" build it here" laws and regulations to stop the wild outflow of this nations wealth, we need control of the media where things like "american Idol" and its cast of hand picked fools are not glorifyed to the younger people, we need music that has some taste, not bang-bang-bang-baby-bang-bang excuse for music.................the general "dumbing down" of america must stop some where, there is more than enuff blame to go around, but two areas need to be focused on, education, and what is education, sex and sports are a couple that come to mind, and national and world politics, which goes hand in hand, we cannot be the worlds policeman, but we can be an influence, lotta room for dicussion here ...have at it......Ken :laugh:

 

True words of wisdom... This country had steered away from its roots toward the merky waters of "money IS everything" logic. Materialism at any expense is wrong and we already seeing the results of it, but if it will go without changes, things will get even worse. It is today where the choice is to face a demise of what once was a great country or witnes a grand comeback. But for now it is just sad to see how this nation is willingly alowing itself to be dumbed out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

okay, thanks for answering the question according to strict Islamic belief. So what about the Iraqi Christians I saw in a news show the other day. Are they doomed? I just find this all a little weird, I don't think all followers of Islam follow it word for word, just like many Christians do not take the bible literally and allow for interpetation, probably the reason we have so many different Christian groups.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thomas Jefferson was an evangelical Christian and is often misquoted here and other places due to the interpretation or dropping of capitals and/or the interpreters missing the subtle references to the biblical background ...notice how he referred to the "Common Father and Creator of Man"...This is not Muhammed or Allah. This is a biblical reference to YahWeh, Adonai, or Jesus's Dad......God of Abraham, Issac, & Jacob...the God of the Jews....

 

Thomas Jefferson was not an evangelical christian and likely not a christian even in the broadest sense of the term.

Referring to the "Common Father" comes closest to the muslim believe that there is "no god but god" which is worshipped by the book religions judaism, christianity, and islam. For technical reasons, jews and christians are therefore not considered "infidels" by some muslim scholars.

Obviously, Jefferson did not derive this concept from islam but from what is likely his belief system which is hinted at by his use of the term "Creator" in the same sentence.

If only the quote "Common Father and Creator of Man" is considered (I'm taking your quote at face value here) and given the time and place, you are looking at a monotheist using Deist jargon.

My money is on Jefferson being a Deist, and that does mean that his core beliefs are far from those of the "book religions", with judaic and islamic monotheistic creeds closer than the messianic creed with its strangely refracted monotheism.

 

Adherents of any of the above mentioned flavors can blow their fuses and become zealots. The danger is proportional to their influence on government and access to firepower.

 

Peter, infidel

 

On further reflection upon the subject I have found it necessary to edit this post:

While being an atheist or infidel certainly carries a somewhat subversive aura, not everyone is comfortable to posture in this manner. There is a viable alternative to such controversial stances. Kathenotheism! One god at a time. Sounds temperate and sensible to me and allows for keeping appearances!

 

Edit: Just to pour some more oil into the fire, I would like to point towards "Intelligent Design" as an interesting example of a modern superstition (if you will heresy), strongly influenced by deist thinking. This particular endeavor has moved closer to pagan roots (natural religion) than anything since witchcraft was around as a credible threat to core christian beliefs. Obama looks pretty mainstream and moderate compared to that stuff.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey Peter...

 

I must agree, everything I have seen and read about Jefferson does not paint him as the evangelical Christian type. I feel he had some basic Christian beliefs and foundation with other influences, but definentally not in an evangelical sense. I think you hit the mark on him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am amazed at how our public has embraced him....This man has sprang up from no where without any political record to speak of- Good or bad? maybe both?

:cheers: ... :feelssogood: no one seems to bringing up the idea at all anywhere except the mainstream media..

 

Don't you know the world is supposed to willing except the Anti-Christ :smile:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

I am amazed at how our public has embraced him....This man has sprang up from no where without any political record to speak of- Good or bad? maybe both?

:smile: ... :laugh: no one seems to bringing up the idea at all anywhere except the mainstream media..

 

Don't you know the world is supposed to willing except the Anti-Christ :smile:

 

Hehe..yes, but it seems too soon. We need to see the rebuilding of Babylon in Iraq (which Saddam was spending cash on, no surprise) and the rebuilding of the Temple Mount in Jeruselem (which they have all the stuff just waiting for the right political time). I also don't know if we believers will see the coming of the antiChrist.......we just might be chillin with Jesus before then. :cheers:

 

"just like many Christians do not take the bible literally and allow for interpetation, probably the reason we have so many different Christian groups"....

 

This is sort of what I was getting at "in name only." I am not and have not asked a US Marine...but I bet if you did ask a US Marine...he would not take lightly the idea that I am a US Marine, but I don't read the manual..I'm just a little different kind of US Marine?? :blush2: I am not sure he would agree that you are a Marine.

 

As far as Thomas Jefferson be evangelical.......In many of the readings I have seen the guy sure sounds like he believes in the One True God but is able to recognize that he isn't going to force it down someone's throat. Did they call them evangelicals then? I am willing to admit that I don't know on this one. I'll have to start looking it up in more detail, I admit I hate it and it seems cheesy when I cannot find direct quotes for you, he is frequently mentioned in the Christian literature I read.

 

Peter...You had to get all brainy with the mono, manyo, quadrupothieioism stuff. I can't ever keep all those straight to save my life so I cannot comment. I am not sure I agree with your assessment of the Intelligent Design being as close to Paganism. I definitely subsrcibe to the one and only true God..no surprise there. These are definitely topics for further discussion. As far as one god at a time...no basis in Scripture fella. I won't go there and I am sure Adonai would think it is typical approach of man. As Ben Franklin said.."you can't solve problems with the same brain that created them.." :feelssogood:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...