PazyrykTheGreat Posted February 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 That sounds like a creative way to time the engine. But adjusting the plate with the bob spinning and revved up to 50 seems like a good way to lose a finger and/or burn myself. I think I got it timed with the method described above and I adjusted the valves. There was quite a bit of space on the left cylinder between the rockers and the valve springs. I used a sheet of paper to help judge the space since I don't have any spark plug gauges. In the mean time while I wait for the new coil I ordered to come in, is there anything else that needs adjusting? I'm curious to how the side car and bike are to be aligned. Are they suppose to be perfectly vertical and perpendicular to each other? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dneprlover Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 You could change all the fluids after flushing out the components with paraffin (coal oil, i think in the USA) . The differential takes 100cc of sae 90 gear oil each chamber, making 200cc in total. The sidecar wheel drive unit takes 200cc of sae 90, the gearbox takes 1.5litres of sae 80 gl4 gear oil and the engine takes 2.2 litres of 20w50 engine oil. More people die of boredom discussing Dnepr oils than any other subject so I will let you decide for yourself what grade to use.Check your spark plugs are correct. Generally, if the carb studs are horizontally orientated, long reach plugs are used. If the carb studs are vertically orientated, short reach ones are suitable. Best to check first. NGK B6 or B7 ranges work well. All the information you are asking for is easily obtainable for free on the net. Manuals can be downloaded from Charlie Harvin's site at Http://www.goodkarmaproductions.com Read them and if you still want advice on setting the sidecar geometry, I will explain it as simply as I can in a further post. On an MT16, the sidecar wheel should be parallel to the bikes wheels and the bike should lean out from the sidecar by about 1 degree. The front of the sidecar should very very slightly higher than the rear. 0.003 inch for the tappet gaps is slightly smaller than the diameter of the average persons hair. Your paper method will result in clattering tappets, get yourself a set of feeler guages and do the job properly please. The engine needs to be set right to run right. PS. Ken appears to be rambling a bit recently and some of his posts are not factually correct. He appears to have ignored the fact you have a Harms points plate fitted. His method can be used in safety provided the original points assembly ( in effect, a sealed unit) is fitted. The so called 'mixing bowl of doom' refers to he original PM302 assembly which was indeed abysmal. I think his bike is fitted ( as are most) with the later, updated PM302a unit which is much better made and reliable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Ulrich Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 Dnepr lover, you are correct, I do ramble, I have been mechanicals since I was about 12 (69 years ago) went to shcool on engine rebuilding in 1949, experience go from R-4360 wright compound engines to .010 cox model engine, bikes from HD '29 JD, to Norton, Triumph,AJS, Matchless,Indians, Dneprs for the last 14 years, (about 80 of them thru the shop) BMW,Yamahas,Hondas, motor bikes , by the bunch. your advice that .003 paper makes a bad feeler gage is a litte off, but it is far better than the infamous twirl method some one deamed up, get that intake valve just a little bit tight and you will be cranking your leg which is attacted to something else....off. Why, you will blow the mixture back up the carb. Ramble you bet, and I have the experience to back it up.....Ken PS what in your wisdom, do you find where iAm in error, I am still learning you know....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dneprlover Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 LOL. Ken, we are all learning all the time and I have learned a lot from your posts over the years but your statement that 36 degrees BTDC is only for MT10-36 models is incorrect. I am also surprised that you recommended your method of timing to a newbie with a chevvy points plate. I have used your method with success but it isn't a method that I personally would recommend to the inexperienced. The OP asked for a KISS explanation , so I gave one that I thought suited the tone of his posts. Dnepr manuals for all models of OHV engines with auto advance/retard mechanisms quote 2 ranges. 32-36 degrees for home market models with 7-1 compression ratio's and 34-38 degrees for export models with 8.5-1 ratio. I chose the figure of 36 degrees to illustrate my point because it suits ALL 650cc OHV models, and as the OP has a 'Yuri' bike, we don't actually know what is inside that engine. As to the type of paper used to set the tappets, I haven't got a clue? Cigarette rolling papers are usually roundabout 0.0015" thick and computer printing paper is usually roundabout 0.005". One is too small and one is too big. I still think he would be better buying and using a proper set of thickness gauges. Incidentally, I agree about the twiddle method, I don't agree with it either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Ulrich Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 No one spoke of cigerrete papers, haven't touched one in 53 years, common paper, i.e wrapping paper, newsprint in on the order of .003 US inch, some times I find it .0035, I do a lot of machining, and it is common to use same for shims and anti-skid material between steel parts being milled.Chevy points. I have seen three set of chevy point that have lost their wiper block. Because the dist. cam of a v-8 engine does not have the same angle of lift one finds on a Dnepr advance cam, this causes an impact on the wiper block on the chevy point to be in excess of what it will take for thousands of miles. In this country there are a least ( i am guessing) about a dozen or so suppliers of points that are made all over the world. some are good, some are crap, IMHO the bad may very well out number the good. IIgn advance: I have about every published manuel for Dneprs and Urals, and I have never seen anywhere where 38 deg advance was mentioned or suggested. Ignition advance, is a need to properly burn a fuel mixture, it varies with engine rpm, the faster you turn an engine, the more advance is required. with the advent of Honda, Yamahas and other high winding engines that holds true. Over time there has been thousands of engines that have blown piston's due to eager wrenches attempting to get more horses from the engines. You might get a mile or two per hour for a while, drop the humity and raise the temp and you are in deep trouble, in the UK it is rarely super dry and or at the boiling hot. A Dnepr engine is not a race horse, it is more like a tractor (not quite) but at times it can be asked to climb steep hills that can reach 10,000 feet of altitude ( leadville ,Colorado) and it is dry. Since the bike has three seats, you can expect three people on it, that figures to 1200 lbs. or more. My "rambling" mind tells me that the higest hill in UK is 3209 feet high. Tiny bit less than 1/3 the max here. Since you are surronded by water, humidity remains high most of the time I presume, that sir will slow the burning rate of the fuel mixture, making 36 deg ttiming safer for your homeland, but not here for the reasons stated. I made my living as a commercial pilot. I have flown from 40 hp cubs to DC-10s, DC-3's Martin -404s in temps from 108F in DC-9 -80 to -48F (DC-3) in Alaska. One gets a pretty good prespective of what goes on in a IC engine, but with the aid of carb heat and mixture controls, and prop pitch changes unloading the the power demands on the engine. I listen carefully to them always! Common sense: In reading the one blog about timing, it seems that he felt that his hands should be near the whirling box of doom.. no way! I assumed that no one would do that. Guys, never get your hands or fingers anywhere near it. I always will adjust the point gap as necessary, and then remount the cap or cover, with the bale in place, then to adjust timing loosen the three screws holding the box, now with a long slem screw driver or similar instrument, tap the ears on the box in the appropiate direction at achive the correct timing. For those of you who like the idea of 38 deg advance, I have 57 sets of new pistons and a boring bar to rebore the cylinder. (s).....All the best ...Ken Short note to Paxryk the great.: If you need a bit more help call (715) 693-6201, be glad to help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dneprlover Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 Lol again Ken. You trying to chase me off like you chased Clint off? Because I don't think this is the place for that. I have measured many Dnepr flywheels and if they have a 'p' mark, it is always round 36 degrees within the bounds of Russian accuracy. Are you saying the Soviets specially stamp timing marks for the US market? That might be a bit difficult as most are the bikes are grey imports from Europe and designed for European conditions, the height of some European roads from sea level may surprise you. sorry, your rambling smoke screen might impress some people but not me. I prefer practical facts when it comes to vehicles and engines.Most people time to the flywheel mark as specified in the manualsI too have a good selection of Dnepr manuals and the timing ranges I have quoted are in at least 3 of them, ( repair manual 1987, MT16 operations manual 1989 and MT11 operations manual 1992) . Failing eyesight is sometimes a product of old age so I would suggest you wear spectacles and study your manuals again. 38 degrees is in most manuals, Anyone who wants to confirm my figures can simply look it up on the goodkarma site on page 5 of the MT16 owners manual Why does being an airline pilot make you know about engines, some do, some don't. I know car drivers that don't know where to put oil in but they are still car drivers. More smokescreen rambling I think. If you want to be top dog as far as Dnepr advice goes, no problem. Post more often with usefull and accurate advice and I will post less. Simple as that. But cut the rambling bulldust please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PazyrykTheGreat Posted February 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 I don't care if ya'll start a flame war over something as silly as this, I just need help making this bike slightly less crap. This point plate timing is confusing. So I put the flywheel at the mark and turn the point plate till the tester lights up, is there anything I'm suppose to do with the adjuster screw on the plate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dneprlover Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 Not sure what you mean by the adjuster screw on the points plate but assume it is to set the maximum gap at the points. Assemble the points plate onto the bike with the screws that allow radial adjustment set in the middle of their slots , then fit the bobweight mechanism and the cam that opens the points. Turn the engine over until the cam opens the points to their maximum opening, using the plate adjuster screw, set the gap between the points at 0.020. Lock this adjustment . Now turn the engine over until the timing mark is in the window and clip your test lamp in place. Turn the ignition on. What you need to do now is push the bobweights outwards against their springs gently until they stop. This is the point at which the lamp should light up. If it does not, radially slide the whole points plate round a little and keep doing that until the lamp lights when the weights are fully open. Once you have found the position. Tighten up the screws that hold this radial adjustment and the job is done. If you have a stroboscopic timing light, you can check with this after you have got the engine running. Ignore the flaming, just keep posting if you have problems and we will try to help. If more guidance is needed, just ask, or read the MT16 operations manual in the motorcycle section of the link I posted. Exploded diagrams are in the parts manual available on the same link Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Ulrich Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 Your statments about my rambalings, eyesight, and failing to understand what 33,860 hours of listening to engines has to do with knowing about internal combustion engines, for the record, I was able to nurse each and every engine home to a safe placel. your LOL's, makes me think that you may be related to most democrats here. They are seldom right, but never in doubt...........as for your slur that I ran Clint off, has nothing to do with it, he seemed to have talked himself into a cornor, all on his own. you seem to put words in my mouth, never stated as to where the timing mark was, only that 38 deg was too much. The method I suggest, is where the spark fires, is it at the deg BTDC? think about it, all the errors that can be found in the gear train, points gap, spark advance device,have now been accounted for, the deadly detonation point has been avoided, that results in reliability. I rest my case.I care not what you say or do, but when you advise people to do things to any bike that I feel I have a better handle on, I will intervene with what i know to be factory recommended information. I don't make it a habit of suttle slurs, such as you aim at yours truly, but you can, your option., I won't glorify any with a reply to you...Ken U-2 Cycles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duckyde Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 The points plate is a pain in the arse and in the long run I think you're better off with the Type III ignition. It's far more accurate and it's largely set it and forget it. I had the points plate on mine for years until I finally got disgusted with having to adjust it every time I wanted to ride (they do wear out). The adjusting screw is for changing the points gap and is there so it can be adjusted with the engine running but indeed is not for the timid. That feature was made more for the GM vehicles, not dneprs. You can obviously adjust it with the engine not running and is a bit safer. The main thing is to find a procedure that not only works, but makes sense to you. After all when it does lay down on you on the side of the road as they all eventually do, you'll need to be able to figure out what happened to get yourself home :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Ulrich Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 SB over in sweden has a saying about "the devil is in the details" As applied to the original points from dnepr, they knew what force were going to be applied to the wiper block on the points, where as the numous mfg'r making GM points may well be using a softer or completely unsuitable material in one brand and not in the other. That in my opinion, is why its not smart to subtitute critical parts if there is no need to. While this thread is beating to death ignition systems, I have been contacted by a research and developement firm , about adapting the triple spark system to Dneprs. Both K-750 and MT series. We have about two feet of snow on the ground here now, so is a little early to be doing any real testing. lighting the fire in any engine has always been a problem to get it right. The triple spark system does a lot to completely burn all the fuel, Idle can be smoother and fuel consumption reduced, starting on first kick is more common etc. As we progress with this I will report on it. If it works out, I plan to equip each engine we rebuild with it. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sat1960 Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 Ken, good to see you back on the forums again. Haven't been able to get in touch with you on the phone/email/PMs, etc, so just dropping a note here to see if you respond. How is that Generator/Regulator I sent over June of last year? Thanks,satish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PazyrykTheGreat Posted February 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 Okay, I installed the new coil and was able to ride the bike around my apartment parking lot and the damn thing just runs like crap. Just a turd rolling down hill. It made it around once and died just before getting back to the garage and wouldn't start again. It struggles to start and struggles to idle no matter how much I fiddle with the points. It was very sluggish and sputtery and backfired a lot. I figured with all these new parts and adjustments it would at least run a little better. God damn this thing is a pain in the ass. So what do I do next? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racepres Posted February 21, 2014 Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 Well....If it starts and tries to run...the timing is probably at least close. Probably rattles a bit based on what I read into your pushrod adjustment technique..but...better than too tight.Now Carbs....Here is what I did. Hope it helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Swede Posted February 21, 2014 Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 SB over in sweden has a saying about "the devil is in the details SB is not living in Sweden... He lives in Norway... I think it's not to cool for Norwegians to get mixed up with us Swedes, they celebrate the 17:th of May every year because they got rid of us... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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